Keeping Up with Chaos Podcast: Helping the Whole Family Sleep Through the Night

This is keeping up with chaos podcast where real random, sometimes funny, sometimes serious conversations happen. Either way, it’s all chaos. So wherever you’re going, pop in your earbuds, find a comfy spot and maybe a cocktail. Join us when you’re in distress because your kids not sleeping and then you’re not sleeping, like you’re almost like going to the spirit like manic state, like you’re like, you can’t think straight. Like you shouldn’t be driving like you shouldn’t be. Yeah, no, it’s true. I should be cooking like there’s no way I should have been cooking or doing list of things for sleep deprivation that’s like oh my goodness for adults alone just for parents a causes obviously depression, like cars, car accidents, because you’re not focusing on like, you just can’t you’re in a fog all the time, causes relationship issues, relationships with your spouse, relationships at work, all of that relationships with friends and family. I think I already said it causes depression, which is new, it causes anxiety as well. It’s overall just your health just Hi, guys, it’s Jocelyn. Tonight, I have my guest co host, Carmen. She’s joining me again this week. So that’s exciting. I also have a great guest coming on. We’re talking about sleep, and healthy sleep for you and your kids. Missy Morrison Charco. She’s a certified pediatric sleep sense consultant and founder of Say Yes to the rest, pediatric sleep consulting. She helps exhausted parents well be themselves again. So it’s super exciting. Glad that she’s here tonight. Let’s get the conversation started. Cheers, guys. Hey, hey, jazz. I’m so glad that you’re here again. Yeah, get you like three weeks in a row. It’s super exciting for me. This is fun. Yeah, I’m having a blast. I love your hair. It looks so cute. And like a bun on top of your head. So thanks. This is like second day, you know doesn’t look good down. Gotta put it up. Oh my god, your hair looks so cute like that. I like didn’t wash my hair for days. I just washed it. So I’m like, you know, you got me. You got clean hair for me today. Oh, you smell great. From this from that far away? It’s not me through the Zoom call. Yeah, do funny. The essence of jazz comes through airwaves. It’s like an energy. It’s a vibe and energy. To funny. Okay, so I just had total chaos today. And I have to tell you, I’m going to fully admit to you that I’ve had I’ve been in you know, kind of the shit with like, everybody just in general. I wore my yoga pants inside out all day yesterday. That’s how my day went yesterday, if you wanted to know how when. And I didn’t notice until like later in the day. And I was like, Oh, that’s awesome. Like we’ve ever had those days where it’s like this, your sock slips. You know, inside your shoe down inside your shoe while you’re walking your your yoga pants or inside out like your glasses are on top of your head. It’s just like, shoot. Yeah, like you’re on your edge. And then everything falls apart. That’s on you. Yeah. Oh, yeah. It goes farther than being all thumbs. It’s like the whole body and the mind. And the bottom line. Yeah, I’ve been kind of at my age today too. And I think it’s heavier, partially hormonal and partially just like, Okay, I need a break. Can I have a break? I have tea. But when traveling man comes back home and might have a glass of wine with him. Oh, good. Is he on his way back? I think he’s working a little bit later tonight. So okay, cool. The house is quiet. Yeah, it is quiet. Wow. Okay, so speaking of the traveling man, because he does a lot of traveling and so like he’s sleeping in like all different places. And you guys travel like all over the United States and sleep in different places. So do you feel like your sleep gets kind of like jacked up when you’re in different hotels and like flying on planes? Right. And that’s, that really affects my mood too. That’s kind of one thing that totally throws my game off. And my composure is when I’m, you know, lacking of sleep and just not feeling 100%. So, for example, if we’re sleeping too close together, and I get hat. Oh, and then I’m awake because I’m like hat. And then I can’t cool down like if it’s a smaller size bed, right and Airbnb or hotel or RV or whatever. So we’re searching for new RVs. And I’m like, Well, I gotta go see this, the size of this bed. So we drove down to Ohio. Three hours one way last week, three hours back, just to see the size of the bed for the RV. To see an RV Oh, yes. And extremely bad. Yes. It’s all about the sleep. Yeah, you know, and hot flashes. And then like, what if? What if? What if your partner snores then what do you do? And you’re stuck in an RV or an Airbnb or whatever? And then, oh, yeah, sleep is so important. It’s so important. My, my man baby used to snore and I’d have to kick them out. And then like, he stopped drinking, and he hasn’t, he stopped drinking. And then he lost a bunch of weight. So that definitely helped with like the snoring but last night, he was like, you know, like little snores. And I was just like, I’m like the one that pokes I like, I will poke until you stop snoring. And I have to tell you, my sleep was not good last couple nights. And I’ll share a little bit more when Missy gets here. But Missy. She’s a certified pediatric sleep sense consultant. And she’s the founder of Say Yes, to the rest. That’s pretty cool. Like, pretty cool. Yeah. And she is from British Columbia, Canada. And she actually was like a dance major. And dance like all over the United States, and I think the world and she’s like a minor political science. So I’m really excited and interested and intrigued to find out like, how the heck she got into becoming like, asleep. You know, certified sleep therapist. Yeah, like a certified sleep therapist. That’s exactly what she is. Right? Is that interesting? Like, what got her on that path? And where the hell was she when I had my first child? Yeah, right. I remember some books and some techniques and some, you know, philosophies. 15 years 16 years ago when we had our first babies, right, I’m wondering how much it’s changed, you know, because they say things changed so much from decade to decade. Like beyond toys and like car seats, like just how to raise children changes slightly. And you know, as time goes on, yeah, it definitely changes it’s changed from my 16 year olds, my 11 year old to my almost nine year old you know, like just that age gap from 16 to and to almost nine the the changes in everything that we went through from the beginning stages of first getting pregnant to like even you know, as they went through the stages of, I don’t know childhood right baby to toddler to childhood. Now I have like a budding young adults. So weird. That’s so weird. Yeah. It’s so weird. Mine was over. I went to two doctor’s appointments today. Maybe that’s why I’m edgy. Well, I’m PMS thing. Well, I’m not PMS thing it’s on. But um, but I was just all over town like doing, you know, Mom things. And then I get home and he’s tracked in dirt from his shoes all over the house, like it’s muddy in Michigan right now. So I’m like, Hey, vacuum, and then I go in his bedroom and there’s like, scrap stains all over the forum, like, scrub it. And then he leaves and I’m like, Okay, peace and quiet. I’m just gonna chill for a little bit. 30 minutes later, he comes back and he’s like, Oh, Allah, Allah. Allah. Allah like, oh, here it is. Whatever you found something he was looking for. I’m like, nice. Can I just be able to last for a little bit now? Right? Yeah. So I had ice cream with my dinner and I feel better. That is amazing. I used to always tell my kids like if you want have dessert first, like have dessert first, especially on your birthday? Don’t eat cake before dinner. Like you should definitely have cake before your birthday dinner. Do it up? Yeah, yeah, I’ve been dealing with like big emotions and working on that from last week. So that’s been really really, really helpful for me with some of the cats I’ve got going on in my house. You’re here. See, hi. Hi, missy. How are you? I’m good. Thanks. How are you ladies today? We’re Welcome to the chaos. We’re do love it. I’m so excited. We’re doing our best. That’s what we’re doing. I love that real word. I’m doing my best you’re doing Yeah, yes. Right here. A little bit of lack of sleep. I feel it right here. Yeah, that end of the day as it starts to like come down on YouTube. Especially if you’re if you’ve had a busy day and you’re a little exhausted. It doesn’t. Doesn’t make life easier. And I was already chatting you up a little bit. Yeah, I’m sorry. Yeah, so we were chatting you up and we had I have some tea miss. Jazz has her. My Florida cop. I call it my smoothie. If you’re single, I call my Florida smoothie. It’s Tito’s. Where are you guys both located at you’re in Florida, and we’re in Michigan, Michigan. Fine. I’m up in Canada. So all sorts of different places. And that’s the beauty of zoom and everything that we’ve been going through in the last couple of years, we get to connect with all different kinds of people in different places, doing different things, which I find amazing. And that’s why we started this podcast and like the first place, but I have to tell you, when I came across your bio on like, what you do, and like, we’ll talk about that. I was like, Oh, my God, sign me up quick. Because where were you like, 16 years ago? We both have 16 year olds as our oldest. Well, you’re almost 17 Correct care. Yeah. Yeah. And I remember like, back in the day, my first did not sleep. Like we’re talking like literally unless he was on my body. Like right here. He would not sleep and I ended up like your light sleeper super light. Super. I actually, I accidentally Co Co slept right which was like a big no, no, but it happens. I had to do Yeah, no, that was how I got into this in the first place was I had a my my now almost six year old was when she was up until nine months cuz she was colic who I had to deal with that and all that. And, but same thing, she would only sleep on me. We co slept I had to, I didn’t know like, I had no idea how to help her at to sleep better. And that’s how this journey began for me is I hired a sleep consultant that was local, someone suggested and I was like, What is a sleep consultant, I had no idea what that was. And, and then after I worked with her, and she, like, literally, I say she changed her life. It sounds cliche, but it is so so accurate. And I said to my husband, so I need to find out how she became this, like, how did this happen for her. And then after I had my son, I used a lot of those techniques, but I still wanted to like learn more. And that’s when I finally said, You know what, this is the direction I’m gonna go, I’m gonna learn how to do this and, and see how to become a sleep consultant. And it’s just been amazing. But I hear that a lot where people say, Oh, where were you? You know, 18 years ago, and because sleep consultants didn’t really exist until probably I’d say within the last 20 years they’ve existed, but now there’s a whole lot more of us. But but it’s it’s definitely I mean, the amazing, like ways that we can change families like from exhausted to being able to be rested and be better parents. It’s absolutely, it’s really amazing. And that’s why I started this was because I was doing the same thing as you guys. I was holding the baby I couldn’t I had to take a nap with it all the time. We had a hairdryer and the bat in the bed to try to get it to go to bed. It was, you know, anything you could do to survive, right? Oh my god, I remember laying on the bed and they would be he would be napping. I mean, I’d have to like, you know, be reading a book and I’d like I’d have to go the bathroom so bad and been out like, you know, like, oh, he doesn’t sleep and you like slide the baby. And then you like sneak and go to the bathroom. They’re like, you know, they went to wake up. Yeah. So we didn’t even use the crib that we bought for him. I ended up using it for my second and he was a good sleeper. He wanted to sleep in the crib. He wanted to go to sleep. But like he was always sick all the time. So that like also, you know, didn’t help with asleep when he was not feeling good, which is like definitely a huge contributor. I have to tell you, I did not sleep well last night at all. Like I still have a nine year old, almost nine year old climbing into bed with me. But he knows. You’re like, Oh boy. Oh girl, here we go. See, maybe you do you still need me. I do probably need you. He makes sure that he does not wake me up because I am a bear. I literally didn’t sleep a full night from like my 16 year old to my nine year old and it’s only been in the last couple of years because I was just getting woken up all the time and right it’s like torture it literally like tourists. Yes, it and especially Yeah, and if you don’t hear them come in and there’s not much you can do about it. You know if they’re coming into your bed and you actually want to change that. It’s you’ve got to you can put a bell on the door. That’s one of my big suggestions for if Yeah, if a parent can’t if you’re if you’re genuinely wanting to change that, like if you want them not to come in, but if you can’t hear them, then you would never know they’re even in there. So if you put you know, something that just shines, and then when they open your door, then it would actually you know wake you up and then you could you know, escort them back or, you know, tell them that they need to return to their bed, you know that you’re looking at just that wait weeks. Yeah, but that’s just a little trick. Well, my husband would probably appreciate that because he’s the one who gets woken up, not me. Oh, yeah. And then once and it’s usually like four o’clock in the morning. So he’ll end up just getting up and going to the gym because he’s like, I can’t go back to stay go back sleep. Yeah. At that hour. Yeah. It is tough and I Okay, so so I’m so intrigued by the fact that you were a trained dancer. Yes. Yes. My Nope, the vacuum just started. Oh. Why did he decide now would be a good time at that, you know, you say, Hey, make sure everything’s quiet right now. Got a vacuum that’s running past me. Okay, there we go. It’s all down. Sorry. Yes, that is chaos the robot that’s now it’s gonna decide to go and make another loud noise so we’re just gonna, we’re gonna ignore that we’re gonna ignore it like a shoe to throw it at it. Yes trained dancer. That’s what you’re asking me. Go ahead. No, no, the funny thing is what if your vacuum went off in the middle of the night woke up your kids? I swear these things have minds of their own. So we got it for Christmas. And it just does. Sometimes it just does what it wants to do. And you’re not the only one. Yeah, I have a friend of mine said her vacuum does that too. Okay, so you’re trained in a musical theater with a minor in Political Science? Yeah, I’m from Syracuse University in New York. I’m reading your bio, but like, like, okay, political science, you know, like, trained musical theater, and then you’re like, I’m gonna become a sleep consultant as a consultant. Yeah, that was my whole life from when I was age five and up ways. There goes. It’s gonna make that loud noise now, so just ignore that. Cheers. Yeah, right. Yes. Yeah. Let’s just take a time to it’s like life, right? Yes. That’s big. Especially you think it’s gonna be helpful. It’s possessed. So anyway, yeah. So yeah, my whole life was dance dancing, singing, performing. So I trained in dance, you know, my entire life and was working professionally by age 16. With Wow, with dance and stuff. Yeah. And so then went to school for that. And, yep, Bachelor of Fine Arts in musical theater. But I always assumed I’d actually go on to law school was where I thought my next step would be after my performing career. So that’s why I did the minor in Political Science. So and then, and then after college, after I graduated, I moved to New York City and got my apartment. And then I toured all over the place and musicals and shows and, and then yeah, then I’ve met my husband. And I decided that it was time to take a little bit of a break from the performing world. It’s pretty harsh, and, and it can be very exhausting, as well. So I just decided, Oh, I’m going to try Canada out. Because I’m originally from Pennsylvania. I’m originally, you know, American. So yeah, so I hear like, and hear the accent. That’s so funny. Yeah. From outside of Philadelphia, but yeah, so I moved to Canada for just thinking that it was gonna be a break, right, I didn’t know I was gonna marry this guy, that kind of thing. And I ended up staying and and I kind of walked away from that part of my life and that career, and we got married. And then we’ve been we’ve been married now 10 years, and we had our kids and that just the performing world just wasn’t here in Canada, the way that I had been doing it back in the States, you know, New York is a very different, you know, a very different place. And the opportunities were, were very different. And I taught dance and stuff, you know, on occasion and one of the studios but that’s why I like after having moms as you guys probably know sometimes feel is you lose your you lose yourself a little bit and you lose that past self. And I found that that because I’ve walked away for that career that I didn’t really know where I stood, you know, did I want to go back to that world? Or did I want to pursue a new world and were people going to believe me or were they going to accept the fact that I haven’t been doing this my whole life that I’m you know, that said imposter syndrome, they say quite a bit. And so I you know, when I when I decided after we had hired a sleep consultant, I decided I decided to go through with this, it was a big change, and it still is like daily because it’s still a fairly new business for me. And not only am I learning about being asleep, consider all the things that come with sleep, but you’re also at the same time building a business and starting a business from scratch. So just just making sure you know, so it’s especially because my past is so different from what I’m doing now, I do get that question quite a bit and I love talking about my past, but sometimes I know people are like, Hmm, does she really know what she’s doing? You know, like, and that’s and that makes it tough sometimes to know I think it’s interesting and intriguing and I think it like adds to like your character and like how you can pull in from like, you know, your dance and your theater and your you know, being on stage and like understanding like, you know what it’s like to like have to make sure your body is in tip top shape, and I’ll see how health and wellness and sleep plays such an important part. So no, I thought I was just I was just intrigued and interested. Oh, thank you for the cheese. Yeah, there. Yeah, no, I love it. Yeah, it’s just it’s so interesting to talk to like other moms about that whole just mindset of, you know, being accepted, when you do decide whether it’s going back to work deciding to start something new, even if it’s just a hobby that you’re picking up for yourself doing something that makes you proud. It’s just it’s tough for us as moms to find that that spot again, you know, when you’re, when you’re, you know, haven’t been doing it for a while, and you’ve been a stay at home mom, and you know, just just raising kids, you know, at that time. So I find that the kids too takes a minute for them to sort of acclimate to the changes, because like, all of a sudden, you’re not like, at their disposal, like, you know, like, 100% of the time. It’s a good thing. Yeah. It does. I agree. It teaches them you know, it teaches them a little bit about and that was a big thing too, like that. I wanted them to be proud of me, right that I wanted them to say, oh, it’s not just dad that goes off and does this. It’s mom, actually Oh, mom has a desk over there. What’s Mom mom doing? And now my daughter, she asks about it. Now, what am I doing? And I’ve explained it to her. And now it’s, well, when I get to be a grown up, Mommy, I want to help people sleep too. I’m like, Oh, I love that. You know that she’s really like, kind of picking up on the fact that, you know, Mommy’s got something else to do. And they say respect the boundaries, which is nice. When I’m like, I have a call to make, you know, I have I have things to do now you have to go play by your sight. No. Yeah. So I have a question. Oh. So when you moved and knew you move to a different country, and you didn’t have family, and I don’t know what your support system was like, but when you had to, you know, get through a night’s sleep and then wake up and function the next day? And did you have a support system that could come and help you? Or was this a driving factor to get help? And sleep? Okay? Absolutely. Yes, it’s a great question. I did not have a support system at all other than my husband. But he works two weeks in two weeks out. At that time, he worked one week in one week out, so I was by myself for a week at a time when he’d leave with this colicky child. And I just remember, I bounced on a yoga ball and just like crying and striving to figure it out. Yes, I had to I and I had to when it came to the nine months, I had to the I couldn’t lay there any more. My body hurt my body ached, I my brain ate I just couldn’t. I couldn’t function normally. And I knew I wasn’t being the best parent I could be because I wasn’t getting any sleep. And so I and I knew she needed a change there needed something had to happen. So that was the driving force. Because I and I knew that there were you know, I knew that asking for support was important. But that was hard for me because I was doing it all on my own. And I didn’t I wasn’t asking friends or family because there really wasn’t any to come and help. So I had to find a figure it out on my own what it was going to do. And that’s why I often talked to the moms when I talked to them at first is I talked to them about don’t feel guilty about asking for support. It’s okay, we need to reach out to the people we need to reach out to so that we can be the best moms that we can be you know, but absolutely yeah, I had I didn’t have much here at all. It was definitely a driving force I had to get I needed help at that point. Breaking Point. I feel Yeah. Yeah, totally. I feel Yeah, on that one. Because like I was two hours away from my family. I’m like, how did we start a family two hours away from from everybody. And then you just figure it out, but like the no sleep and then you add in another kid into the mix, you’ve got one kid, and then you have a bring in another kid and then like you’ve got two people maybe not sleeping well, and then you’re not sleeping well. And then you’re up all night in Europe all day. And it’s like Insanity. So how do you Okay, so let’s talk about this because you you’re talking about the sleep sense method. And you’re trained and certified in a very particular method. And I want to talk about that a little bit because I think that’s interesting and how like healthy sleep habits make for happy healthy kids. And like how those two things coincide. So that was kind of like a double question. Sorry about that. Okay, so yeah, go ahead. What is it about this like, particular method that you love so much? And like, what is it like what is Yeah, yeah, the sleep sense method was created by Dana Oberman. So she’s the like, head guru of it, she created it, I’m gonna say it’s been about 15 to 20 years now that Dana’s been doing this, and now she sleep trains, you know, like, big, you know, celebrity, celebrity babies and things like that. She’s, she’s a pretty big deal. And she created this program, and based off of, you know, her experiences and things with her children, but what I loved the most about it is the approach to it. Of course, I can’t give away the secrets to it, but it’s it’s a gentle approach. So it’s most it’s all based on minimizing the amount of time yours and things like that and protesting that you’re going to get all children are going to protest it’s going to happen. That’s, that’s, you know, there’s no there’s no such thing as no tears at all. Unfortunately, if we could do it, we would you know, but it’s it this is a gentle approach where you’re supporting your child, you’re comforting the child you’re you’re you’re letting them know you’re not abandoning them in any way there is no cried out involved this is that is not at all part of love. Yeah, it’s definitely because there’s no reason for it, it’s it, there’s absolutely no reason to let your child cry it out, if that is not an absolute necessity, and your child is just not, you know, reacting to anything else. So, you know, that is the final thing. And I would say that’s like one one or 2% of the time that we ever have to even consider that as an issue as a own approach. But yes, is a much more gentle approach where and that’s the biggest thing I think the parents like about it is the fact that they’re going to be there to support the child the child is never going to feel abandoned. So that was a big draw for me and also that the that the tactics they work that’s another big one to the success rate is huge. So that that’s also was a huge draw for me so and, and and everything that Dana has done is so well respected. Like if you Google sleep sensor, you Google Dana Olbermann, that’s all going to come up and it’s all going to be positive things the amount of people that she helped before she ever even started training, other sleep consultants so and and the training program itself, just the amount of mentorship that we got in that first year of going we have coaches we have people we can go to with any questions we ever have. We have constant we’re taking webinars constantly listening to doctors doing scientific research, it’s It’s amazing all that comes along with it. It’s not just kind of like a Oh, check the boxes, you took this thing online. And here’s your certificate, not at all like that. It’s it’s a lot of work. And it’s constant work. Like I’m constantly reading up on new things, constantly studying, and I have a whole stack of books next to my desk over here that are all baby books, things related to babies and development and sleep and all of that. So I think that answered your first question. I think I think there was a big push when we were when we first had kids was to let him sleep, cry it out. And it was like, Oh, it was heart wrenching. And that was all he knew. And we didn’t have zoom and his zoom really changed the way you’ve been able to help people. Oh, I think so. Yes. Yeah, I, for me, this I can work with people all over the world, literally. Like, it doesn’t matter if they’re in the UK, if they’re in America, if they’re in Canada, it doesn’t, it doesn’t matter. And we have the ability, what’s so wonderful about that is like this, the one on one, being able to actually see the moms and the dads and look them in the eye and explain to them everything that’s going to happen and then be able to listen to their concerns that I think just technology in general might my clients, when I work with them, I work with them for two to three weeks at a time. And they can message me during my like hours, they message me as much as they want and through a messaging app. So that ability to be there to support them and to offer you know, whether it’s that they’re upset or something doesn’t feel right or if they’re really excited about something that really really well, you can be a part of all of that and that’s I think with technology and with zoom all that is is just made that so easy for me to work with people everywhere, which is really quite incredible. What you get a real person. Yeah, yes. My like there’s a real human Yeah. That’s like you know, I mean, I feel like things are changing the need to change back to that because it’s like the whole automated stuff like forget it like that doesn’t help and when you’re in distress because your kids not sleeping and then you’re not sleeping like you’re almost like going to this we’re like manic state like like you can’t think straight. Like you shouldn’t be driving like you shouldn’t be Yeah, no, it’s true. I should be cooking like there’s no way I should have been cooking or do a list of things for sleep deprivation that’s like oh my goodness for adults alone just for parents that causes obviously depression like cars car accidents because you’re not focusing on like you just can’t you’re in a fog all the time, causes relationship issues, relationships with your spouse, relationships at work, all of that relationships with friends and family. I think I already said it causes depression which is new it causes anxiety as well it’s overall just your health just pure deteriorates. It’s There’s nothing good about it. There’s there was a something that came out last week and it was about heart disease, and that people that don’t get the correct amount of sleep at night over longevity are way more at risk for things like heart disease and other you know, terrible things that just because they didn’t get adequate sleep. And I talked about that a lot to parents that do call me and I say, Listen, this isn’t just about getting your child to sleep, this is about you and your health to and your child’s health. These are skills they’re going to take into adulthood. And if they don’t sleep well now, most likely, they’re going to have some issues with sleeping when they’re older, too. So getting through now is so important. Oh my god, I remember I remember when my old my oldest, like he wouldn’t sleep. And by the time I got like my hands on a book, you know, because we there was none of this. There was no sleep consultants back in like 16 years ago. Yeah. And I got my hands on a book that someone told me back. So I was just at my wit’s end. I was like, literally, like, oh my god, I’m gonna run away, like, I can’t do this anymore. So not being able to sleep. So I got a book and it was it was like a, it was not a cry it out. It was a they did not they did not want you to do the cried out situation. So it was kind of a different theory, which was fresh and new to me, because I was like, I am not letting this kid cry. Right? This is torture for me. And so, but I’m like, I can’t just have them on my body the whole night. You know, this isn’t healthy for either one of us. So by the time I got him sleeping, you know, like, at least like four hours, which was the full night’s asleep. And then he actually took a morning nap. Like he gave up the morning nap as soon as I got I’m taking a morning nap. And then and then you know, and then I got up he was taking a good afternoon nap. But that didn’t last very long. Because he was like, he was older that older. So I mean, I didn’t realize like it all compounds, right, like at all like the overnight into the morning into the afternoon and like and then and then it’s like it builds right so let’s talk about that. Like when you when you’re missing sleep, like there’s issues like they’re absolutely it affects the whole 24 hour cycle. Like it affects your it affects your body clock, your circadian rhythm gets completely thrown off. And a lot of times parents will get told, oh well your child’s not sleeping at night so skip the nap you know that’ll that’ll fix it and that is not true at all. And there’s actually unfortunately some doctors that will say that to just in I think sometimes in a rush to just tell parents Oh try this you know, because doctors don’t have a whole lot of time to sit there and explain sleep to everybody which is where we come in but it’s it’s definitely if the child does it for daytime sleep isn’t honored then it does totally affect that nighttime sleep and you’ve got night wakings which then affects the next day just like you said they have sleep debt, which then you have to work to get rid of in order to get them back on so to having those naps during the day is so important honoring especially before like up until age three you know is usually when those naps still exist, it’s super important because it does it throws the whole the whole day off everything and if it’s a later nap than if then it can affect like bedtime because then a lot of times parents say oh like put I put my kid down at four. And I’m like oh boy, because now that means get isn’t going to bed until 930 and and that’s way too late for any child of any age. Even our teens, tweens, we don’t want them going to bed that late because we need them to get the right amount of hours at night so that their day is is you know worth I can’t think of the word I’m trying to think I was productive. Yeah, there you go. Thank you forgot it was looking for. So yeah, it definitely affects the whole by the time I third came around, I was like he has to be in bed at this time and I was like adamant about it. You know what I’ve got friends who are hanging out camping so this is when we lived in Michigan and we are camping like you know, and I was like I’m sorry I’m gonna have to take a break from our socializing and I have to put them to bed like he has to go to bed because like you know I’m not going to it was just a mess it would have been masked like it just would have been you know just he would have been tear it would have been bad so routines are so important. Sticking to the routine and having a routine at home is one of the biggest thing like even if you even if you pop onto my Instagram ever a lot of the tips that I talk about you’ll see routine happens to be in a ton of things even if they’re about a completely different topic. Routine always comes back up because it is so crucial for parents even if they don’t necessarily want to sleep train their child or if they’re just wanting to just make some improvements. Some things maybe are going well I always recommend make sure you’re having good bedtime routine going a good nap time routine going and that you’re consistent every night so it’s not oh baby goes to bed at seven o’clock your child goes to bed at seven o’clock and then goes to bed at nine o’clock the next night and then eight o’clock the next night you want to have a consistent night bedtime every single day and same thing with a nap too. It’s so important or else the whole thing their body clock can never it can never adjust it can never figure it out. Just like you know adults do it the same way we get up at different times every morning you probably notice that you feel differently and if especially if you went to bed Add, let’s say you decided, oh, let’s watch a TV show for an extra hour. You feel that the next day, if you had to get up at the same time, the next morning, you’re gonna feel that a lot less hour of sleep that you that you didn’t have the night before. Absolutely. And I was gonna say like, I remember one of my girlfriend, she actually hired us asleep consultant. And I was like, what’s that? And she was like, we were at our wits end. And she has younger kids, too. They’re both under the age of five. And I was like, Oh my God, I wish I had a sleep consultant, or, you know, someone to help me coach me because I didn’t know anything. And I’m obviously like, I have so bad, almost nine year old getting up in the middle of the night and coming into my bed. Yeah. Yeah. So let’s go ahead and carry we’re gonna say something. I remember doing crazy things like, well, with my oldest, I would put two diapers on him because he was such a light sleeper, and I didn’t want to change his diaper. Every time I changed his diaper, he would wake up. So I was, and I think that’s crazy. And you know, why we could have done it this way. And then when my oldest was two, I had twins. And I decided, well, we’re gonna just let them sleep in their in their swings, because I can’t handle handle it. Yeah, yeah. And so we would just stock up on batteries, and they would just swing themselves to sleep. And the other thing I was thinking was, your support probably lends itself to healthy marriages, too, because you’re bringing a whole family together. And that’s just like, an immense amount of support that it’s like, not amazing, yeah, necessary for a healthy family and, and marriage and, you know, having your partner understand and care and, you know, want to be on the same path with you to, you know, help your child and your self and your family and your marriage. It’s one of the biggest things that I talk about, when I do my Well, two things that I do when I start out with like a first, if somebody’s just interested in in hiring the, it’s just a 15 minute Free call. And I always recommend that if the dad or the spouse can come on that, that’s great. And if they can’t, that’s fine, I’ll talk to them on but so often, what I hear at the end of that is, I need to talk to my spouse first. And I know usually that this mom is at her breaking point. And I try you know, I have, you know, ways of saying to her, you know, just make sure you don’t wait till you’re at your breaking point, things like that. But so often, it’s still by the time they even hire me, the spouse may not be on board by that point. And so I always, always recommend that for my when we sit down for our hour and a half consultation when we go over everything that the spouse is a part of that. And then from there, I go into a whole segment about how important it is for them to support each other, how they need to tag team with each other during this process that they need to give each other breaks. So it it never pits one against the other. And so you guys are going to do this as a team, because this is for the family. This is going to help everyone and and if we’re all consistent together, then let’s call baby Susie, then Susie isn’t going to be confused or anything, Susie is gonna understand that her parents are supporting her. And that causes intrinsic knowledge. That’s when they start to learn, oh, this is this is a good thing. Sleep is a good thing. This is a wonderful thing, especially we get into the toddler, and the older children that can understand and can see the reactions of the parents and can understand it. And then it and then on the other end of it when they finish. I can’t tell you how many people have said to me, you have changed my marriage as well. You have absolutely transformed and it did for my marriage too. Because we were at our wits end and it completely changed that and then changed our life too. Because now now, now I’m doing it as a career too. So it’s but but I that’s one of my favorite things to hear is you know, it’s great that the baby’s sleeping and I’m so happy but I love hearing that relationships are better, and that their marriage is better because of it and that they get some time to themselves again to do things together. Watch a show sit together, have a dinner, have a glass of wine, you know, whatever it is so like binge watch something on Netflix. Yes. So you don’t have to leave the house to have like a date. You can have a date night. Date, right? Yeah, it’s not a couch. And like watch a movie. We did that for Valentine’s Day. We watched like, we watched a movie. It was really funny. I was like, wow, we’re really or fancy these days. Do you have any tips and tricks for like snoring spouse’s sleep apnea machines. Husband ended up with oh my god, but no, that was Yeah, that’s actually that was my husband was a huge snore. And it was it used to keep me up and he went got tested and it turned out he had sleep apnea. So now he has one of those machines and he does great but yeah, just tell them to go get tested. For things because a lot of times that Snorri could be some sort of a minor sleep disorder or something like that. So you just never know, it’s always worth it to get tested because they, once my husband got tested for that and went through all of it, it actually is it will help with like heart attack, stroke, everything, there’s some really great benefits for it. But a lot of times, that’s the case is that they have sleep apnea or something to that effect. And same thing goes for kids too. If your child’s snores or has a heavy mouth breather breather, that’s always something on my original questionnaire that I asked, because then I will either refer them to a specialist to make sure that there’s because a child can have sleep apnea as well child can have other you know, sleeping disorders. And we always want to make sure we deal with the medical stuff before we tackle any type of training but but for husbands I would suggest going having them go do the snore test at the sleep clinics because it’s worth it. I trade them in I’ll tell you just reminded me of something because my middle like I said he wanted to sleep he was a good sleeper right out of the get go like right out of the gate right out of the womb, He was a good sleeper. You wanted to be in his crib, he was so cute. Like you’d always have his hands like on either side of the mattress. Like he was just snuggling. He was so cute, but he was always sick, right. And then then when he got to be a toddler, like he would, he would get woken up and want to come into our room. And so and then I had a younger I had a baby. So I was like you can see, I’m like I don’t care where you sleep, you can sleep in the bathtub, you know, like a dry bathtub, you know, like are on the floor of the bathroom or on the floor in our room. Like just you can’t sleep on my bed. But it turned out that like when he did come snuggle with us, like he would just, he would snore he would like thrash around. And I had to go to a specialist we had to go to an end, it turned out that his tonsils were so big that they were almost closing his his breathing airway. So it was not like an emergency like call 911. But like they had to get him in and get his tonsils out get his tonsils out fast. Absolutely. That’s one of the things that I usually say to parents too is if they say it’s a heavy mouth breather toss injury, I say go to the pediatrician or go to your family doctor because it can be your tonsils and stung. Yeah, that huge. They like we’re almost closing his throat. And I didn’t even know it, you know? And how would you you would know, it’s not something that would you know, it doesn’t, you know, present itself unless somebody you know, tells you that or if you’re having if you’re seeing something like that consistently, you know, happening that you’re like, Oh, I better, you know, see what this is about. But yes, that’s common that that’s not super common, but common if it happens, yeah, it definitely happens. So like, definitely, you want to address the medical issues before you start training and all that kind of stuff. Always always Yeah, and, and a lot of times if there are medical issues, and they go to their pediatrician, let’s say and they find out okay, this, we’re dealing with this, this and this, the pediatrician will usually I’ll tell them, the parent makes sure you tell them that you’re about to start sleep training. And that one, I’m happy to talk to the doctor as well. But usually the doctor will give them the Go ahead, once it’s they’re ready because they want the child to get the sleep because a lot of especially when it comes to different behavioral things, and that sleep has a big impact on all of that. So you want to make sure usually the pediatrician says, you know, we want this child to start sleeping so we can see what we need to do next. And so that a lot of times they’ll send us back to us. So we can do that. And they get it done. It just depends on what’s going on. And even realize too, like I have an ADHD kid and it’s like I didn’t really like I remember like him not taking naps when he was younger or like not getting a good enough sleep. And then it was a mess the next day and then come to find out that like not being sleep deprived definitely sets him up for behavioral issues big time for being ADHD for sure. And the eating too. Yeah, but yes, absolutely. It has a huge effect on all that like my daughter, she has a lot of really big emotions and struggles sometimes with all of that and so same thing if she doesn’t get that full night’s sleep at night, it totally affects her day at school and all of that so it’s it’s huge, you know, if a child has ADHD or if they’re on the spectrum, anything like that, having that good night’s sleep is so imperative to the way they behave the next day and helping them to develop and grow that it’s It’s absolutely vital for all of that so I have a question for you and carry the surprise I would definitely like resonate with you. I have a teenager right so you know obviously like I don’t really have a I do have a saying when he goes to bed but I don’t really have a say because he’s you know it’s like I’m usually in bed by the time you know and asleep before he probably really goes to sleep and even if I go in there and say all right you know you need to get off your electronics you need to shut it down and get in bed like this is what I want you to be like shut everything down. Does it really happen? Probably not. And then it’s I’ve seen recently like in the last year that like it’s been compounding and they’ll come home from school and he crashes at like three and sleeps to like set Then like Mrs. Dinner and I’m like you’re screwing up your circadian clock. You’re messing everything up. And then like, he’s, you know, we’ll get sick, you know, and he’s like, I never get sick. And I’m like, Why do you think you’re getting sick? Because you’re not sleeping? And he’s like, Oh, I made up for on the weekend. Like, that’s not helpful, right? I mean, back me up here. I need some Yeah, absolutely. No, absolutely. If that does not help, like, I know, a lot of times you’ll hear that, oh, you know, like, my kid got sleep over the weekend, they’re fine. And that just doesn’t make up for it. You know, we need between eight to 10 hours still, we want our teenagers to going to night, yeah, eight to 10. It’s just the same as as adults, it gets a little bit when we’re in our like tweens age, we still want them to be getting closer to that, that 10 to 12 hours. But once they get a little bit older, you can move closer to that eight to 10. But the biggest thing is the screens, the screen time is just killing everything. It’s just them being on it even close to bedtime affects them being able to go to sleep, just like it affects you and I right if we’re on our phones, the blue light, so I always recommend trying to get them off that screen at least an hour before bedtime, if you can, even up to eight and a half an hour. Yeah. And it’s and it’s all about boundaries. That’s that’s unfortunately, when it has to come in is just saying, you know what this is? This is the way it’s gonna be. And that’s and I know, I don’t have a teenager yet. So I haven’t so I can’t, I can’t say that I’ve ever been in your shoes. So I get I get it. But it’s it’s I know, it’s probably super tough to do that. But can you turn them off? It’s really hard because a lot of work is done on the computer. And they’re already on it. Yeah, and, and so they’re already plugged in. And then to finish that and our you know, before they go to bed, it’s just if you can implement something after they’re done their homework, even if it’s for like a half an hour after that, or even 15 minutes, like maybe getting them interested in reading a book for 15 minutes or journaling, meditation, anything that makes you know, whatever your child happens to be into, we’re going to try meditation that yeah, I would try that because then at least it starts to cue the body and the brain that it’s downtime now. And then that way, they actually start to become tired, because what the screen does is the blue light, it keeps your it keeps your cortisol up, instead of producing melatonin, which is what we want for bedtime, it’s doing it’s having the opposite effect on our bodies. So if we at least have a little bit of downtime after it, then your body can at least start to shut down a little bit. And then of course, trying to avoid the I know I’ve heard where there’s, you know, teenagers that pick their phones back up at 2am, or something after mom and dad are asleep, and they’re playing with it. If you can get away from that, you know, at all costs, that’s always something I definitely recommend. But and having them like even if it’s short, having them have a bedtime routine. Now, of course, it’s not going to be like what you did with your baby or your toddler or anything, it’s, you’re not going to sit and read stories and cuddle but, but having them just talking to them about having something that they do consistently every night, also cues the body and the brain that it’s time for sleep. So even if you can get them to do like, three things, right? Like this is what you’re going to do, you know, try to do this this and this every night before bed, at least it’s something to queue the body and on the weekends, yes, they they will catch up on a bit of sleep. But you know, the as far as like backing yourself up for you know, if they’re saying well, wait a minute, Mom, I don’t want to do this, it just talking them about the health effects and finding articles and things that talk about that. Like if you go to the world Sleep Foundation, to their website, anything like that, where they talk about how important sleep is and if you can throw a couple of statistics out there and, and things like that, and just, you know that sometimes it will resonate, sometimes it won’t obviously teenagers, you know, are strong willed, but, you know, talking about how it’ll affect their, their grades and their day at school and their development, that kind of thing is, you know, especially when they’re getting up to the graduating years, too. Yeah, I was gonna say give us a couple of tips like what’s a couple of like, what could I what could I throw at him? You know, like, in terms of like, if you don’t get enough sleep, you’re going to your grades are gonna drop. You’re gonna be terrible at fortnight or, you know, your responses will be slower. Yeah, that’s actually a really that’s actually a really good one. Things like that. If you don’t get enough sleep, you’re putting yourself Do they drive? Does he drive? Not? Yeah, I mean, kids these days, they don’t want to drive. I know your mind does. But don’t don’t it’s like I don’t like that. Like actually a thing like, Oh, really? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Why? You DanceAbility I think they’re scared of the responsibility that or he doesn’t want he’s like I’ll just Uber you know, it’s like they have so much accessibility accessible now because I would say you something like that, like if you’re, if you’re not getting enough sleep, then you’re not going to be in the right state of mind to be able to drive, therefore, I’m not going to be able to let you drive to such and such are they in their active and if they’re active in sports, that’s a great one. If you’re not getting enough sleep, there’s no way you’re going to be able to perform at the level that you want to perform and continue to improve in that sport or activity, whatever it is, it doesn’t have to be a sport or activity if you’re not getting adequate sleep, because your brain is basically mush. If you’re not getting the right sequence, it has no time to recover, it has just no time your body and using sickness to especially with, you know, with everything we’ve been going through for the last two years, two and a half years, that you’re only making yourself more susceptible to getting sick, whether it’s COVID, or anything else. If you’re not getting enough sleep for your body to have a chance to just rest. It’s just important, you know, you know, or I think another one to say is, you know, if I could go back to when I was 20 Yes, I want to continue to have fun, and do fun things. But do I wish that I had gotten a little bit more sleep here and there? Sure. I do. You know, but I didn’t know that right? No one told me that and my parents I you know, made sure but I did the same thing. I was doing homework. Late at night, I was dancing. I was training at the studio too late. And I don’t know if I ever got like that full, you know, amount of sleep that I should have been getting. But I I wish that I had gotten a little bit more because maybe it would have even helped my career and stuff more to you know, who knows if I’d had more sleep in the beginning. Well, I love when I sleep. And I heard this like, forever that your subconscious helps you figure out whatever you’re worried about or trying to figure out in your day to day life. So I kind of I tell that to my one son that has big emotions. I tell him you get to just relax and let your mind wander and and just drift and when I first started saying that to him, he’s like drift let your mind go what and I was like, Oh, wow, this kids went round up pretty tight, you know? So it Yeah, but your mind? Yeah, if you’ve got a kid that’s trying to you know, like solve problems all day long and then they can’t go to sleep because they’re still reeling about it. Right maybe that would help that your subconscious can help you out while you’re asleep. Absolutely especially if they’re having trouble at like school or something with friends or something like that. You know, just saying if you have that time to reset it gives you the chance to kind of think it over what what are you going to do next? How are you going to approach the next day I fully agree with you that that absolutely it gives you that chance for your body to and your mind to reset if I had to tell you I had a kid that with colic it was my number three he had colic I will not wish that on my worst enemy no and ever like even like my worst I mean I remember just thinking like This is insanity like that’s like it would be in the middle of the night too. So like I think that like having you to be able to have like a consultant to like be able to help you through like some really tough situations too if you have like a little one anyone out there that has like a baby like a newborn you’re just like oh my god what’s happening right now? Yes, it’s real The struggle is real salted like we get out Yes, and it’s edit and we and that’s really interesting why we all do this is that’s cool want to help it’s not for any other reason other than that, you know, it’s because we most of us went through we all have our own story but we all went through this struggle in this whole sleep thing in the motherhood so in some way whether it was with college children or with no college children or twins or whatever it was you had to deal with and and absolutely like we’re here to help them there to support who’s there to help you keep people consistent and to help them stay accountable to you that’s the biggest thing is so many people start sleep training and then like they don’t really know what they’re doing and they think they know how they know they need to make a change but then they don’t know how to stay consistent with it. Yeah, and that’s where I come in to is I’m there to help keep you consistent keep you accountable and support you know so that so that you can make it through the whole thing and action see legals yes and get some rest sick and you’re not a zombie like the next day oh my god slog I feel like consistency is like key for like life you know like everything and sleep should not be something that you don’t stay consistent with you know, and if I don’t get eight hours of sleep I get sick and so I finally told my husband I’m like if I’m an I now will like lay down before we came on this afternoon and get enough sleep last night so I was like I made myself lay on the couch and close my eyes for 20 minutes because I did just need 20 minutes and I felt so much better because I don’t know about you guys and I’m how did this affect our kids because we can wrap this up really quickly but It’s like, do you remember? Like, you’re so tired? You’re woozy? And then you feel nauseous? Yes. Yeah. And it’s like, how did our kids feel like when they weren’t sleeping? Absolutely, absolutely. And that’s like, so often, you know, parents are rightfully so concerned about the crying and things like that. And Anna is it going to as the training Park, and I’ve heard the child and what I say to them so often to is that there’s going to be that protest, but we’re going to make everything gentle. But in the end their development and their mental well being is actually detrimentally being affected by the lack of sleep, that they’re not like that they’re not getting. Whereas if you’re getting that sleep that they need, then their development is better. This is it, this is a healthy decision that you’re making for your child, you know, it’s so important for their growth and development. And that’s at any age, you know, whatever age it is that you decide to, to make that change, even if they are eight years old, or 15. Or if they’re poor, or if they’re just a baby, you know, definitely, you know, makes it makes a big difference. So that’s, that’s the big thing is that the growth and development for our children, it’s so important. And then, and then for our well being, as parents, we’re not that we’re definitely not the best versions of ourselves, and we’re exhausted. Like, that’s for sure. It’s really hard to be a parent when you’re tired. Oh, my God, I was like, just leave me alone for 20 minutes. At that moment, right. Yeah. And like not and not getting enough sleep for like, the amount of years I didn’t get enough sleep, like a full night’s rest without somebody waking me up. I mean, it’s like it’s torture. And now I’m like a bear. Like, don’t nobody wake mom. Like, don’t wake her up. Like it’s like you will like not survive. And I remember and this is gonna be like a little funny, because remember, I don’t know if it was Morgan Freeman. Do you remember like the go to F to sleep? Do you remember that? Did you guys ever see that? Did you ever you know what I’m talking about care? Don’t Yes. Or if you Google it, it’s like this like meme? Oh, yeah. Where it’s like it. He does this whole book. And he reads a book about like, go to half asleep or something like that. And I remember thinking, yes. Just go to like, what’s wrong with you? Like sleep is natural? Like, why won’t you? Yeah, why is why are we all feel so good? So much better? You know. So look that up. It’s really funny. Well, I will. Morgan Freeman and these Morgan Freeman. Isn’t it care? I don’t know. I can’t remember who who did it. Maybe I’m surprised that I haven’t seen that. Well, I’m aging. But what a great foundation for anybody just sleeping in general is such a great foundation for a good life. Yes. I’ll try to teach that when they went to teach that when they’re young, you know, and then they’ll take that throughout their whole life? Mm hmm. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. The earlier I mean, obviously, the earlier the better that parents get started. It’s you know, the, the earlier but it’s, we always say that it’s never too late, though, to teach a child how to or, you know, or a teenager how to sleep and how to have, you know, better habits, you know, even if it’s just your there’s just little things that you’re changing can make a big difference in their life. So, yeah, I absolutely, I totally 100% agree with you. And I’m gonna it’s a lot more work with a 16 year old, but I’m definitely going to, like re keep reiterating. Like you have to sleep and you have to go to bed at a good time. Yeah, he’s telling him Yeah, clearly, he’s not sleeping when he was younger. It’s impacting, in fact. Yeah, except those of you said a few boundaries. But you know, and also just talking to him, like he’s an adult, because it’s, you know, explaining to him that the health, you know, the whole health part of it. That’s, you know, they’re old enough to understand all that. And, you know, I think sometimes we think they’re not listening, but think secretly, they might be, they are deep down, they’re actually listening to them. So there’s one last thing you just want to leave with, and, you know, our listeners are listening or just for us, you know, like, I would love to like to start like one like, last little thing, like little tip or trick or just like a thought. Yeah, I would say like, my, my biggest thought would just be that sleep is not a luxury or a punishment. It’s a necessity. And I write that down and a lot of things I do, but I think that is so important. I think it’s a great quote, and I think it is so incredibly true. It’s vital for your for a healthy lifestyle, and to be the best people we can be and an end to end for your children to be the best they can be. That’s awesome. I love that I’m writing it down right now. It’s a necessity Yeah, it’s a great it really is. It’s a great quote and I actually don’t even know whose quote it is. It’s just kind of out there in the world. And it’s I kind of live by that because I think that that’s it’s just true it’s we kind of seem to think that it is like some sort of a luxury now if we get to sleep and it shouldn’t be that way. It should be a necessity and a part of a daily life. It just shouldn’t like we shouldn’t have to go and have eight cups of coffee. No, no, we shouldn’t and I think it’s there’s a there’s a good open a whole nother can of worms with time but that that stigma that moms are supposed to be exhausted all the time, I can’t stand that. I think it is untrue and unfair. I think that moms do need to reset. I think moms do need a break. Moms do need to be able to sleep there is nothing wrong with a mom wanting to teach your child how to sleep so that she can get rest do. And there’s so many moms out there who feel guilty about that. And I just I hate that I don’t like using that word, but it’s, it’s true. I really don’t like the fact that moms sit out there and they know that they need that help. They know they need the support. But because of mom guilt, they’re afraid to ask for help. And that and that goes for all sorts of different things, right? Mental health, fitness all the thing. Yeah, self is totally real. And self care is a necessity to I was just thinking when you said it’s a necessity, like it’s not a luxury or a punishment sleep. And I was thinking of The Jungle Book like we’re the bare necessities I need to but you’re right, you’re so right. Like we don’t have to be tired all the time. You can’t function when you’re tired. Oh, it’d be the best version of being a mom, a friend a sister and and like, you know, like a co worker, whatever you can and can’t be your best friend to yourself either. No, I mean a man. You feel so much better after you rest. Totally like docilely. Absolutely. Well, thank you so much for coming on. I really appreciate it. Thank you for having me. It’s it’s been a blast. Thanks for hanging out. Cheers. Good to talk to you a little bit about sleep or lack thereof back there. However, if anybody wants to get a hold of you or touch base, you mentioned your Instagram. So you want to share that? Yeah, I’m at say yes to the rest today. I love that. And yeah, and my website also has everything on it. That’s www dot say yes to the rest.com. So companies called Say Yes to the rest of Pediatrics. So I love that little expand on like say yes to that yeah, and I’ll make sure I put it in the show notes. Everybody if they don’t have like a piece of paper and pen can jot it down so that it’ll be easy access. So especially if you’re sleep deprived you need easy yes. Easy. So important. All right, perfect. So much. Pleasure Alright guys, that’s a wrap. Thanks for joining in on the conversation tonight. As always, thank you to my guest co hosts, Carmen for coming and hanging out. Thank you to our guests, Missy Morrison Charco, who’s a certified pediatric sleep sense consultant, and founder of Say Yes to the rest, pediatric sleep consulting. If you want all the information that we shared in the in the in the show today, check out our show notes. And there’s going to be important links there for you to click on. Also check out our website keeping up to chaos.net and you know the drill new episode every Wednesday night at eight o’clock Eastern Standard Time. I’ll catch you on the flip side Cheers guys.